michelle goldberg author of "means of reproduction" and sam, host of majority report at majority.fm. all right, as early as tomorrow morning announce whether it's striking down the reform to care act. america's first attempt to provide health care coverage to all its citizens. in the run up to the announcement, much of it has centered on its political fallout, but the bigger stakes are the human stakes. the supreme court decision on american citizens if the affordable care act is struck down. released a poll in which an overwhelming majority 77% said if the law is struck down, they think congress should start work on a new health care reform bill. good luck with that. only 19% said it should be left as it is. hardly anyone wants to return to a time of prehealth care reform.

somehow that message gets lost and because it gets lost it has created a massive problem for the obama administration. alec mcgillis picked up on a great piece they wrote for the magazine on monday. robin layman who had not even heard of a law, mcgillis says "layman was hardly the only patient aware of the law aimed to help people like her by expanding health insurance in 2014." this gets to the heart of the political dilemma for the democrats. the party is unlikely to win many votes from the future b beneficiaries most who live in the south and the west. i thought this piece just perfectly encapsulated the problem. to me the key issue with the affordable care act, if there was one big mistake in the law, delaying implementation of the law until 2014 so they could say when they scored the cost of the

law over ten years that it basically came in under $1 trillion. whatever the target they wanted to hit was because there is no constituency for the law right now because most, the lion's share of the provisions and the most central provisions and the things that might aificate people's lives have yet to happen. >> this is a yegz thquestion th don't know the answer to. you need these exchanges. someone has to set it up and a whole infrastructure that needs to be built. >> you could have implemented the expansion of medicare, medicaid. you could have implemesmplicate some level and a lot of things that people don't realize theye getting now whether it's free preventative care, people's colonoscopy, the co-pay is not what it was. i think part of the problem is, there was, that six-year horizon or whatever it was.

the four years that we had to wait for it was similar to the stimulus in some ways. the administration was so afraid of what opponents would say that without, i think you mentioned this on yesterday's program, they're going to say it anyways. you couldn't make it under 1 trillion. >> they were hiding the true cost of what this was going to be. upwards of 50 billion and estimates of what it could be. >> $50 billion a year, you're saying? >> no, $50 billion long term over the scope of time because the cbo original estimate, that's why they need to have the mandate because you have to be required to buy insurance to cover the whole program, much like social security. social security would collapse if we didn't, if we had a choice to opt into social security, it would not exist any more. >> right, sure, but that's the whole point of universal social insurance, the way the risk pooling works, it mandates people into the program. that's what spreads the risk.

>> i have many problems with the health care bill, but they try to satisfy too many parties. they made pharmaceutical companies happy and they didn't achieve real reform. what bothers me about the health care debate is transparency. why do americans not know what a service is going to cost when they go to the hospital or a doctor's office? >> you think that's the public health care reform? >> i think they should have done more to require -- what industry do you have just blind expectation of going in, getting a service and there's no standard billing procedure. and that really hurts the uninsured because they pay three to four times more when they go to the emergency room and they do end up getting billed. >> you do sound like a lefty now. that's true about the uninnershed. they don't have bulk unnegotiated rates. >> i want to free market solution. >> but here's the problem, there is no free market solution to

the problem that you're talking about. that is a function of the free market and, in fact, in some ways what you're advocating for is what i think some on the right would call the death panel. i mean, to look at the effectiveness of -- >> i have a huge problem with the phrase death panel. it's not a death panel at all, end of life conversation about what people want. i think that was really politically terrible. >> there's a conversation about rationing and dishonest conversation about rationing and death panels and the like and also conversation about the kind of one of the huge problems that we have now, which is that you do seek, uninsured do seek care in the emergency room and get these insane bills and it's kind of inefficient and deadly for people at every level. what that possibly has to do with flaws in health care reform, health care reform will address that and i've not heard

any argument that it exacerbates that. >> clearly this is a major problem. >> by 2024, so, we're adding in recently -- >> no, not social security. medicare, medicare absolutely by 2024 is going to have a significant financial strain, partly because, largely because of the increase of cost of health care of inflation year over year. now, part of the reason that we're having. here's the key point. we're having a debate that is identical to the debate that we would have had prior to the passage of the bill, which is precisely the point. we are still having a debate that is largely in the world of abstraction, but in the world of ideology and the world of speculation on how we can change the current system, but that's exactly the political problem they have with the law and they can't go to voters. they can go to voters and essentially make the case than the one they made before the passage of the law. those are important, right? >> it would be almost impossible

to make a case for medicare and the abstract. if medicare hadn't been implemented and demagoguery, no one would listen to this argument only because people have medicare and holding on to it with both hands. >> this gets to the point you made earlier. medicare, i believed ramped up in six months. whether this was a political calculation about the scoring window and what the cbo score came under and whether the program can be implemented in time and medicare got on its feet as fast as it can. >> you have to be able to deliver the goods that people talk about and they have to see the bread and butter and consider that if the law's struck down, california will be negatively impacted because they move to expand their coverage of medicare recipients immediately and -- >> medicaid. >> absolutely. >> i think there were two complaints, biggest complaints on the left during this whole

medicare, excuse me, the affordable care act debate and that was, one, the lack of public option and, two, 2014. because you can't, you can't sell somebody on a policy if you don't show them, like you say. >> the goods. it has to be the goods. you're not going to buy a home with the prospect of moving in. >> let's also just say, when we're talking about this bill, we have to remind ourselves. there's a lot of monday morning quarterbacking going on and more if the law's struck down. the law passed by the skin of its teeth, as it was. it's unclear if you could put either a gram more political pressure, the more political pressure you put on it was the fact that the sticker, the price tag on the law was hundreds of billions of dollars more because they were scoring it now because implementation started earlier. i don't know if that's where it passes. >> both those elements are more or less where it started.

the public option was still in play, but the scoring is all sort of where it started in that process. it was trickier as it went on after kennedy, after kennedy's seat was lost. >> that's the legislative sausage, right, you start with something more robust and decent. >> i'm not sure. we started with -- >> but they went with the mandate because then it's not called tax, which is what, and this is going to require a lot more tax dollars. so, by the using the mandate now, that's the very reason that it's likely to get struck down. >> they went with a mandate because that had been up until obama opposed or supported it. that is the bipartisan conservative position. so, obama, i think, has underestimated the political faith of his opponents. >> in terms of the tax issue, one thing we'll see in the decision is the fact that if it had been explicitly call would a tax rebate, it's almost certainly constitutional and one of the things the supreme court

justice ess are going to rule os whether the actual letters, the combination of the letters, t-a-x make it constitutional, not the structure of the policy, actually these letters attached to it. more on the affordable care act, when we come back.

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talking about the affordable health care act. what the stakes are for this decision that comes down this week, possibly as early as tomorrow. i just want to make two points. one is that in terms of the sort of notion of the free market system and there have been proposals about what that looks like. >> the mandate. >> the mandate was the version, right? the mandate was the idea that you get risk pooling by requiring this, of course, that

is the model that mitt romney puts into effect in massachusetts. the politics of this is interesting because mitt romney will talk about it, which he doesn't like to do. one thing i would like to emphasize the market for health care is different than the market for all sorts of other goods for a whole bunch of reasons. but one of the big reasons it's different is that the consumer dozen make decisions about what they will consume. the key market mechanism is that i walk into bed, bath & beyond and i want those shower curtains and those shower curtains and make my decision. i don't have a doctor that comes in and says, you have to get this shower curtain. the mediation of consumer in health care with the whole world of advisors who have degrees and who have knowledge that you don't have, right? you're dependent upon their

expertise to make these consumer decisions and they're making these decisions and we have this bizarre triangularization and i want to lay that out as a principal of how this market funks because it functions so differently than other markets. i want to play this great clip because one thing that is really interesting here is people don't like the status quo and they also don't like the new poll, but they like the individual things in it. the idea that the bill gets struck down and anyone teaches it. the idea that anyone politically goes near that hot stove, again, for 15 years, 20 years is perposturous. the system will collapse in and on itself before that happens, again. what that looks like, i think it's important for us to focus on. the human cost of that. here'sen exchange with mitt romney and jay leno the day after affordable repeal looks like. >> you would make the law stand

for chirp aldren and people wit pre-existing conditions. >> if they're 45 years old and say i want insurance because i have a heart disease. we can't play the game like that. you have to get insurance when you're well and if you get ill, you'll be covered. >> i know that guys that work in the auto industry and they're just not covered was they work in dust and they were never able to get insurance. they are 30, 35, now they have it. that seems like a good. >> right, that's the point. this is the break down. george, you were saying you are one of the few who retains what you call a cookie hope that the destruction of this bill would lead to universal. >> folks of my community are nervous of this bill, too. what it means to their business and part of the class that are the automatic expansion of medicaid.

>> which is a lot of people. >> a huge portion of people where i live and in new york city. >> the huge. let me be clear, a huge progressive victory. $15 million who are poor who didn't have health care. >> clearly, it's a step in the right direction. part of what i represent is a movement to start challenging the progressives of the democratic party. i think we need unwavering progressives who are not just going to hold the line and who need to move forward. the reality was, we have a memory in our head, it was the democratic party that failed to deliver universal health care because of these blue dog democrats, who all got primed and who all lost. the mandate from the american public was there. i'm still one of those folks who believe that we can actually have a progressive movement to pull the house of representatives back in two years and deliver on the promise -- >> of universal health care. >> if the supreme court acatually marks it down. >> i think subsatively you're right. >> but you're right that that's the right thing to do, but

politically, i mean, the people who went from for this kind of adulterated version of health care reform are not necessarily because they're sellouts or less progressive or less idealistic. >> some were. >> some were. i think obama has been pretty clear. i think obama in a perfect world would have preferred a single health care system and i know there are a lot of people who don't believe in his good intentions, but the fact is, there is no political universe that we live in in which this was a possibility. the idea that you could have replaced these blue dog democrats and some weren't blue dog democrats, the idea you could have replaced. we recently saw a bunch of primary wheres they challenged more established democrats and they have lost -- >> a lot of them. >> they lost across the country. when you look at the polling, when you look at the polling, there is a reason that the democratic party is not as kind

of idiological conservative. >> i would argue that part of the problem is if you don't deliver on this, it's hard to measure whether or not more progressive candidates will do well because, you know, one of the toughest parts about health care is that 80% of costs are by 20% of the people. most people do not realize how horrible their insurance is until they need it when it's too late and those are the people who this bill really does help. >> final point on this topic, and i believe this strongly. the reputation, the left or the center left, however you want to call it is tied to this president and tied to this bill whether people on the left like it or not. to me, just completely a moral calculation interest the bill's failure whether it is struck down is a huge political blow for liberals. broadly. the idea that you can double down after that is a dubious

one. i want to talk to someone who is on the ground in the city of detroit working with folks that are low-income that don't have health care that are just in the grinder of the system we have and what life looks like for them now and what it will look like on the day after this is struck down, if it is or the day it's upheld, right after this. s. and when you switch from another company to us, we even reward you for the time you spent there. genius. yeah, genius. you guys must have your own loyalty program, right? well, we have something. show her, tom. huh? you should see november! oh, yeah? giving you more. now that's progressive. call or click today.

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great ted leo. i want to bring in dr. herber and assistant dean of community of assistant health at wayne state university. good morning, good to have you here. >> hi, chris. how are you? >> you are working in a community health center that are attending to the needs of folks who don't have very much money. i want to start with are their lives improved under the affordable health care act, and things that we do not know about

one of the under the radar aspects of the bill that have not given much publicity? >> definitely. in cities like detroit where we've seen a loss of almost 60% of our primary care physicians and with a population of almost 800,000 people and 200,000 people uninsured, this act will actually, in its full enactment will cover about 170,000 of those 200,000. so, what has initially been passed when the bill was released in 2010 are things like temporary risk pools where those who are uninsured that have pre-existing illnesses that really had no where to go, the bill actually funded about $5 billion for 50 states to form temporary risk pools immediately so that people were uninsured, pre-existing illnesses could get

start getting health care. i don't know if it initially or helped businesses add people to their health care roles, but, clearly, it stopped small businesses by dropping people by having 35% tax credits for those who are, if they spend money on health care insurance. and, clearly, we've seen even my kids, you know, with the expansion of coverage for those who are up to age 26 and that's been a critical. we've sen seen that law and that part of the law definitely expand coverage for kids a3 million people in the united states. i did want to say something about the reason for the four-year ramp up because i can't speak to the political aspects of that, but, clearly, the political and the delivery system aspects. let me tell you, you cannot turn

a spigot on in the united states and try to absorb and cover 33 million new people overnight. massachusetts, which is a small state, actually turned on the spigot and covered 550,000 people. they gave them insurance cards and they got the insurance cards and what happened? they tried to get an appointment with the physician and they did not have the primary care capacity and the population ended up in an emergency room and exploding costs by 33%. now, imagine, that's a state. imagine expanding that at the national level. we needed time to develop and build the infrastructure, the primary care infrastructure in the united states. four years is a drop in a bucket, but it gave us time, especially with the time of community health centers in the united states and the money is put in place for community health centers to get the primary care and the infrastructure and delivery system in place and we also needed the money for the exchanges and the time for it to

build up and ramp up for the exchanges. >> what i'm hearing from you and what i read time and time again on how the system works on the ground, our current system and the medical schools undersupply, vastly undersupply primary care physicians and this is particularly true in communities where they're most needed, in the place like detroit. is the law as enact aed now helping on that front? are you seeing the difference in that now or will you see it in the future if it is, indeed, upheld? >> well, let me just say, there was $11 billion put into the law to expand primary care capacity and physicians in communities. and also another $1.5 billion in the health service corps to give loan repayment for physicians who practice in urban and rural areas where you see a lot of the deficit. but, remember in 2010 when the republicans took the house, one of the things that came up was they wanted $100 billion cut

right away in the budget. the cut came down to $38.5 billion. what that meant was, the $250 million to build 350 new primary care sites throughout the united states was cut from 2250 million to 209 million which means instead of 350 sites across the nation, we actually only had enough money in that first year for 67 sites. those kind of policies go backwards. we need and, actually, the community health center program has always been bipartisan. both sides of the aisles have always supported -- >> it was massively supported under george w. bush, in fact. >> exactly, exactly. they have always supported the expansion of primary care. but if we continue to -- the bill is set up to have the resources in place to ramp us up to primary care capacity. but if we, in these cyclic

budget cuts continue to cut primary capacity out of that program, then, you're right, you will have people with insurance cards with no place to go. >> doctor, i want you to stick with us and when we come back, what the human toll of this looks like and whether the folks you're seeing in your medical and community health centers know what's at stake when the supreme court issues this ruling. stick around. germ party! eww! now the colgate total mouth. nice! [ female announcer ] colgate total fights 90% more plaque germs. i'm in. [ female announcer ] colgate total. less germs. healthier mouth.

there's another way to help erase litter box odor. purina tidy cats. only tidy cats has new odor erasers... making it easy to keep things at home... just the way you want them. new tidy cats with odor erasers. dr. herb smitherman in detroit, you work in community medical centers. now, i want you just to tell us what are the human stakes for the folks that are coming into your medical centers, if the law is struck down and do, are they aware of those stakes? i mean, i want to be very clear, i do not fault them if they aren't, but i'm curious as just a factual matter whether it's -- there's an awareness that this law is out there and might deliver some tangible improvement in their lives. >> exactly. we have 50 million people

without health insurance in the united states. community health centers and primary cucapacity we're caring for about 23 million of them. we have 33 million people out there that are actively looking for physicians and in our health center it's not uncommon that outside detroit in rural and urban areas, we get calls from across our state from people looking for a doctor to help them solve their problem. that is find basic medications and find if you're diabetic or hypertension. just getting a medication can prevent a heart attack or a stroke. in fact, i think the furtherest we've received a call for a patient that was looking for health care in detroit was from florida, was a gentleman who had actually been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer. he was able to afford the psa, the screening test. he had symptoms of prostate cancer and it took him a long time to actually find the

prosthetic biopsy. once he identified the fact that he had prostate cancer, he could not find anyone to treat him. we received the call in our practice. this is occurring across the nation. what we have seen since the law has been enact aed, especially with these temporary risk pools, that is the 50 states got $5 million. our state of michigan, i believe, we got $140 million to set up temporary risk pools that are basically insurance plans for people who are uninsured with pre-existing illnesses to help them find insurance and we have had patients in our practice who are uninsured, had a pre-existing illness and we've been able to get them health care through these temporary risk pools and those risk pools actually got started 90 days after the plan was enacted. >> this is a perfect example, also, because that is a great example of a concrete, deliveerable from the law, but it's also, it's absolutely a moral requirement that our

country have a social contract that produces that kind of result, but it doesn't necessarily result in some massive, tangible political benefit because that is a small subsection of the population. sam sph. >> i'd like to ask the doctor if the temporary risk pools, are they functioning at capacity? in other words, are the people who are eligible for that temporary risk pool, are they coming? is the word out there that this is available to people? >> the word is out there in many states. in fact, in probably 35 states, even prior to the bill, many states already had something similar or something rudimentary. so, the actual bill helped either start this new in a state or add in capacity. so many states actually had this already ongoing and this was just an expansion of that program and, yes, people are hearing about it. you know, different states have different penetration into the

communities but we in community health centers are making our patients aware of it and getting them sign eed up. that's a value we bring to that situation. just so you know, you can have a diagnosis of cancer, a known diagnosis of cancer in the united states and have no access to treat it. >> right. >> dr., tell me what your life looks like and the lives of your patients look like if the law is struck down. i mean, i guess it's a return to this status quo that everyone sees as broken. what does that look like? what do you personally think about when you think about this decision that might come down this week? >> our largest concern is that the, as your guest and as you mentioned before in 2013, the majority of the act gets implica implicated, and the exchange

between 133% and 400% of the poverty level, that is for people making $29,000 to $88,000. we actually have health care for them. that's 91% of the population. if this law is struck down, especially if the individual mandate is struck down, it really undermines the insurance aspect of the bill and the exchanges actually, probably go away. it's unsustainable because the reason you need an individual mandate is because if you're going to take sick people. that is those with pre-existing illnesses, insurance doesn't work when everybody's sick. you have to have healthy people in it. so f the individual mandate goes around, the exchanges which cannot sustain themselves with just sick people in them, they actually go away and, really a, that's half the bill and that means a significant, probably of the 33 million people, about 15

or 16 million of them will not have health insurance. we could still are have the expansion of medicaid and if they still have the individual mandate, the business tax credits, we can probably still have the, obviously, the keeping people on their health insurance plans up to age 26, banning, banning the rescissions or dropping people when they're sick, which we also see in health care. that's something that is not uncommon in practices in the united states. you're caring for a person. they develop a serious illness and the insurance comes and drops them. >> dr. herbert smitherman, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. supporters of egypt's two political parties, if that's what they can be called are gathered in tahrir's square at this moment. they and we are waiting the results of the highly disputed election. we're expecting results at the

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♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ we're standing by right now for word from egypt, where election officials say by 9:00 this morning, eastern, in just a little bit, they'll announce the results of that country's disputed runoff election, the first since the revolution. mohammed moraci, the last prime minister in the mubarak regime have already claimed victory. you're looking at a live shot from cairo's tahrir square where protesters have gathered for the results. sparked in part by fear that military rulers were preparing to invalidate the results. showed their candidate winning with 52% of the overall vote.

the results were initially supposed to be revealed on thursday, but election officials delayed the announcement saying they're investigating allegations of voter fraud. the deepening political crisis after they tightened their the strong grip on power and rewriting the constitution and dissolving the country's first elected parliament since the revolution. military officials said sunday that they are prepared to answer any unrest with protesters in tahrir square, with force according to the. hillary clinton urged military leaders to relinquish power. >> i know that there are ongoing conversations between our military leaders and their counterparts in egypt. we think that it is imperative that the military fulfill its promise to the american people to turn power over to the legitimate winner.

>> joining us now at the table is lala returning to the table and co-director of the middle east task force at the new american founation. good to have you here. >> thanks, chris. >> you said something to me. you said something to me when i saw you in washington last week, you said the arab spring is dead. and why do you think that? >> perhaps i can res have what i said. >> our off the record conversation that i just put on national television, please. >> what happened in egypt is there is a complete reversal. so, the counterrevolution has brought egypt back to square one. and, so, we have now, in place, what is essentially the same power structures that were there before the people went to the

streets. so, in egypt, at least, we can say that the arab spring is -- >> on its death bed. >> but also the air ab spring as we interpreted it before. which is the idea of people, many people going to the streets and calling for the fall of the autocrats and the leaders leaving and then a new set of principles in democracy flourishing. this sort of framework from the air ab spring -- >> which we saw from country to country revolt in the streets and striking back violently or not and the fall of the succession of these regimes that people thought would endure forever. >> that idea, i think, are finished. what we have now are ongoing uprisings throughout the middle east and africa and what we need now is a new set of sort of

revolutionary oppositional politics that will allow countries to build a consensus and a road map for what was before to a new democratic system. >> that's quite the challenge. >> we're going to go live to the nbc news correspondent in cairo in just a moment. we'll hear from what it looks like there, right after we take this break. [ female announcer ] women have made it the number one selling anti-aging cream undeniably. it creamed unbelievably a $500 cream

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want to bring in nbc foreign correspondent iman from tahrir square. i see people massing in the square. who is massing in the square and why are they massing there? >> behind me are supporters of hamid morsi. there are some revolutionary groups. largely the crowd behind me is

mostly supporters of the presidential candidate, morsi. in another part of town last evening supporters for the rival. the mood in the city, in general, one of great tension and a lot of anxiety and a lot of rumors that there is a curfew imposed and to give you a sense, though, the anxiety building up here over the last several days and no doubt that there is a little bit of anger. >> and the tension is based on the fact that it sounds from the reporting i've read, from the folks that i talked to and even people i talked to in the u.s. government that it is genuinely unknown what this announcement will be that staff, which is essentially the military, the generals who have been running the country in the wake of the revolution are holding the cards right now and there is a sense that morsi actually probably did win a majority of the votes in the election, but generally unclear whether staff will go ahead and announce him as the

winner. >> absolutely. when you look at the past week, a series of decisions made by the ruling military council that has angered the public. no doubt that the underlying tension is the result of the election delay, particularly in the announcement, that the announcement haven't been made and they were scheduled to be made on thursday and now in a short while from now. underlying all that are the attempts to hold on legislative power and the right to detain people and, more importantly, their control over the national budget and not giving the incoming president the powers of a civilian president and that's why people have now begun to feel that this transition to a democracy is being somewhat manipulated by the ruling general and that certainly heightened the anxiety. against that background, both candidates that claim they have won. the muslim candidate has come out and saying according to their tallies that they've won, they're making the counterclaim and no one speaking to the

egyptian public transparentally about who is the winner. >> this is michelle goldberg. from the reporting i've been seeing one reason that the muslim brotherhood has not been vocally protesting the parliament is that there is some kind of back channel negotiations with the military. but if shafik is named the president, then it is kind of like the coup is complete. at that point, what does the muslim brotherhood do? at that point do you see kind of real civil unrest or violence or what are people planning for? >> well, if you take the muslim brotherhood for their word, very open and very public in saying there will no violence, absolutely not call for any violence or demonstrations against the results, if, indeed, shafik wins. people are very cynical so there is a great sense of mistrust. because of the fact that you

indicated backdoor politicking taking place. we heard that they have been meeting with the staff and there is some indication that the muslim brotherhood is entering into a power sharing agreement with the council and that, in itself, has ang aered groups that don't want to see the groups come at transition to democracy. there is always the opportunity of those who are cynical here, including brotherhood supporters that the military supporters may not trust and they have reneged on deals in the past and they feel their best interest is to try to shape the election results into the hands of shafik. that would anger the prorevolutionary groups that are not aligned to one group or the other movements. >> i would like to make some sort of connection here because lots of us in the movement have been paying attention to egypt and paying attention to the arab springs. to what extent have the folks out there in the beginning, the

grassroots community, to what extent are they falling off to the background that you have the well-organized groups mobilizing because one of the reason why occupy wall street rejected it is because it's so top heavy and elite driven that we would suspect to be under the reins of people's. to what extent have they retreated to the woodwork? >> there is no doubt about it that the very organic movement of the revolution that began on january 25th has not moved to the back seat. at the forefront of the confrontitation between the military and a lot of the political forces here have been the muslim brotherhood, as well as their allies, particularly other ultraconservative islam t islamests. the youth movements and the social movements and the labor movements have all somewhat rescinded a little bit particularly because they are not as politically organized and

as well funded as the brotherhood that has 80 years political experience. as a result, when it comes to negotiating, the military found it easier than the more fragmented social youth. >> we will check back in with you in a little bit. we're expecting a decision imminently. when we come back, mona joins us from cairo. we will discuss what has become of a revolution that really captured the generation of americans around the world and whether we're seeing the end and demise before our eyes. right after this. tell it wears on them. narrator: he's fought to pull us out of economic crisis for three years. and he still is. president obama's plan keeps taxes down for the middle class, invests in education and asks the wealthy to pay their fair share. mitt romney and his billionaire allies can spend milions to distort the president's words. but they're not interested in rebuilding the middle class. he is. i'm barack obama and i

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only from venus & olay. revealing smooth and goddess skin begins. high schools in six states enrolled in the national math and science initiative... ...which helped students and teachers get better results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this. hello from new york. i'm chris hayes. george martinez, an activist with "occupy wall street" and a candidate in tuesday's congressional race. communication director elise

jordan. michelle goldberg author of "means of reproduction" and leila from the new american foundation middle east task force. you're joining us at a moment of tremendous anticipation and tension in egypt. that's a live shot of tahrir square in cairo where momentarily, we're told, the ruling council of generals will announce. the two candidates that have gotten the most votes is mohammed morsi and the candidate of the old mubarak ahmed shafik. it appears we'll get an announcement momentarily. you should stick with us and we'll geto cairo. right now i want to bring in mona who is in cairo and, mona, what i want you to set up for us is how did the revolution arrive at this point? i think all of us in the states who don't necessarily know the intricacies of american politics watched with just tremendous

emotion and admiration for the, what looked like the most beautiful expression of popular uprising we had seen recently in our times. probably since the fall of the berlin wall as people nonviolently brought down a regime that was so corrupt and so brutal to its people and now we see a choice between the muslim brotherhood and the old regime and the question, and the question that george asked is, what happened and how did we end up at this point? >> well, first of all, you have to remember that we've been under military rule since 1952 and that regime was the regime behind hosni mubarak and we got rid of hosni mubarak, we didn't get rid of the regime. the institution may be a bit less and their weapons and they're not the military. the oldest opposition movement in egypt. they have been in operation for 80 years. during the mubarak regime the only way you can impose the reshum was through the mosque

because mubarak could not close the mosque. the rest of us who did not use religion were imprisoned and the muslim brothers were imprisoned, too, but they had the mosque as a platform. suffocated and strangled to death by the mubarak regime and it's not a surprise that the strongest opposition to the regime is the brotherhood. this is very natural. what we the revolution needs to do is organize for the next elections and run and organize socially and culturally on a whole host of other levels. i want to stress something, chris. this is not back to square one, if this was back to square one, do you think the military that has been running egypt since february 11th, do you think they will be negotiating with anybody if the revolution had lost, do you think the generals would sit there and backroom channels to negotiate who gets what piece of the pie? they would have said, go away, we're in charge. they clearly feel the need to negotiate and the muslim

brotherhood, are losing leg legitimacy through that negotiation. the muslim brotherhood got 10 million votes in the parliamentary elections and they were halved in the first round of elections. whose arms were broken and assaulted and as a feminist and secular muslim. under the muslim brotherhood should they hold the brotherhood. for me, the real winner is the military. the revolution continues because our struggle is the constitution. our struggle is not to sit there and negotiate with the military. that is going to taint and delegitimize the brotherhood. free egypt from military rule and free egypt from any kind of dictat dictatorship, including the muslim brotherhood. >> we have leila here from the new american foundation, leila? >> also to correct what i had said to you about the death of the irarab spring.

egypt is a different con. people have a new consciousness and a new sense of empowerment and new collection is an important operating principle and there is a new set of politics and that will continue to live on. but in terms of the muslim brotherhood's power, you have to remember that tunisia also went through a revolution and they also held elections and the brotherhood party won the plorality of the vote there. the brotherhood won the majority of seats in egypt's parliament. now, why are they winning? it's in part because, yes, historically, they were able to talk to people through the mosques, but, ultimately, why they won and i saw it in action in tunisia and i was observing the elections because they were mobilizing through familiar networks. they were mobilizing their families through friends and they were, they were close to the people on the ground. and they were working at that

community grassroots level. now, i think whether or not they will continue to have the support in the elections is a question and that will come down to what kind of governing decisions they make. and the brotherhood's support in egypt was said to be slipping. >> and, mona, mona seems to be making the point that part of the slipping of that support is the fact that the closer they get to be appear implemented in the status quo before of striking corrupt bargains with staff they get tainted as an opposition force. my question here, also, i want to play something and i want to play it for all of you at the table. a pretty profound statement. the question of where this ended up is inevitable because the two institutions that did have roots and power were the military regime and the muslim brotherhood. inevitably this is what you would expect or brought about by

strategic mistakes by the revolutionaries that we couldn't be at a different moment if different things are pursued. this is secretary of state hillary clinton making the case that the tahrir protesters fell down on the job because they refused to engage in electoral politics. check it out. >> the people who started the revolution in tahrir square decided they wouldn't really get involved in politics and i remember being there, this kind of goes back to your very first question. going to cairo, you know, shortly after the success of the revolution, meeting with a large group of these mostly young people and when i said, so, are you going to form a political party? are you going to be working on behalf of political change? they said, oh, no, we're revolutionaries, we don't do politics. >> exactly. >> i sat there and thought that's how revolutions get totally derailed, taken over, over, undermined and they now are expressing all kind of

disappointment at the choices they had and the results. >> mona, does that, does that ring true to you? >> well, chris, first, i mean, before i even answer that, i have to impress upon your viewers that we're all very well aware in egypt that five u.s. administrators supported our dictator understanding that he was a dictator who was preventing us from organizing the policies that secretary clinton says we have lacked. so, please, let's remember this. secondly, yes, of course, there was an idea that politics was tainted because it was tainted because we looked at the choices available. it was always a regime who told those five u.s. presidents who supported him it's either me or the crazy men in beards and the crazy men in beards saying it is either us or the regime. we were stuck between these two people and we said this is not the kind of politics we want. we want to end it, we want freedom and dignity. the chance of the revolution were social justs and social

dignity. we saw the candidates that were available and none of them were fully representing those ideals. now, we have been under military rule for 60 years. very difficult but now we organize politically. in 18 months, we didn't have time t organize politically. anyone else would be foolish to claim otherwise. revolutions that still don't want anything to do with politics. i understand organize socially and culturally. we need to be involved in local counsels and we need to be involved in grassroots network that grow up and revolutionary egypt and, again, i stress the constitution is the most important ally in this regard because the framework of the constitution, whoever is our president and whatever the role of the military banter, we need a constitution that can guarantee we can get rid of that president in four or five years. a military that guarantees we cannot get rid of our parliament that we have elected. >> the constitution has yet to be written and this is one of the questions in the wake of the revolution in which the order

like would happen and parliamentary elections and the parliament was dissolved by the staff and there was no constitution and now we have this presidential election and a president in which there is no properly constituted president and the live shot you see there is the announcement where it will take place imminently. stick with us, we'll be right back. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] get the mileage card with special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. thanks. ♪ okay. what's your secret? [ male announcer ] the united mileageplus explorer card. get it and you're in. more than 50 times a day? so brighten your smile a healthy way with listerine® whitening plus restoring rinse. it's the only rinse that makes your teeth

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we were monitoring very closely the situation in egypt where we're expecting an announcement any moment of who will be the next president of egypt, that is the hall in which that announcement will be made. that's filling up right now with reporters. they have announced that they're going to be telling us shortly. elise jordan, you worked in the fls security council and i'm curious your thoughts as you

watch this unfold. >> three years ago this month obama gave his cairo speech and at the time i said, he really wasn't out there enough on democracy, but, again, he kind of staged the u.s. rhetoric of, we do stand for these pluristic values. i just worry when we have the situations on what's unfolding in egypt and it doesn't look like our actions. we are perceived as interfering against the democratic prosand looking out for our own interests. it's not helpful in the long term. >> also seems to me, it also seems to me the u.s. right now could turn from a moment to how the u.s. plays its role in this and there is, "a" less leverage than what leverage we have over the egyptian government. the massive amounts of foreign aid we give to the military and a waiver exercised to disperse a $1.3 billion payment in that regard, but if we stop that payment, that seems to possibly

unravel camp david which is the signature cornerstone in the entire region and it also seems to me that in some ways the u.s. has the same, the same difficult choice as folks like you, mona, and the revolutionaries who are not thrilled about the staff or muslim brotherhood. >> i'm not sure what your criticism of the administration is. most conservatives are criticizing the administration for being too soft on the muslim brotherhood, not for not standing up for democracy. the standing up for democracy in this case would mean proceeding morsi. >> i think they were slow hanging with mubarak too long. hanging with a dictator, how old was he? he was in his 80s. who has been there for hoyears and not seen the protest w the direction it was going and that put us behind the curve. >> mona, is it perception, perception in egypt about the u.s. role fundamentally being a helpful one for democracy, a hindrance or maybe not as

central as we america like to think we are. >> right. when we began our revolution last year, it was very clear that the revolution was clearly outpacing the u.s. administration. the u.s. administration at the time and i was in new york at the time and i was doing a lot of media and i was here and struggling to keep up with events on the ground and essentially people in egypt understand that they supported the dictator at the expense of our rights and our freedom because you offered them stability. this mirage of stability. so, now, people look and say, they are going to support them. if the military opposite to the u.s., they're going to support them. at the end of the day, the u.s. pays $1.3 billion in aid so buy u.s.-made weapons and the egyptian people are sitting there saying, when do we get a say in this because none is on the rights of our freedom of rights and democracy. the u.s. one is not one that is

looked upon sympathetically. >> i just want to respond there and interject one thing and you are the expert on these matters and i'm sitting here in new york and you're sitting there in cairo and it is important for the american audience to understand that there is a base of popular support for the regime, whether that is completely the product of propaganda because they have been eculturated to it and system that buys people off, but genuinely millions of egyptians who do want to see the regime and power and want to see shafik announce the winner. isn't that correct? >> well, let me put it down in just plain numbers for you. in the first round of the elections, mohamed morsi got 25% of votes and shafik got 24% of votes. is that the majority of egyptian voters for you? clearly not. the majority of egyptian voters, 57% of egyptian voters voted

nonislamists. egyptians want stability through the military and through the muslim brotherhood. 25% and 24% are not the majority. when those two candidates run against each other, the majority of people running together voted out of hate and fear for shafik and the majority of people voting voted out of hate and fear of morsi. >> that's called a democratic election. that's exactly how we roll here in the u.s. >> which is why when we're talking about transitions in the air ab spring we need to talk more about mobilizing consensus for what a new, a new vision, a new type of governing system, a new social contract looks like. >> what does that mean? what does that mean? >> well, i think egypt, you're talking about how you sequenced transition. well, so, the egyptian

protesters in the streets accepted that the military took over power from mubarak. they did this unilaterally. they suspended the constitution and they took over and then they said that they would call for parliamentary elections. so, egypt went straight from the military control to a parliamentary elections and, instead, i think what they should have done was write the constitution. >> and the constitution remains unwritten at this moment. you see on your screen the announcement of the next president of egypt and the first presidential elections after the revolution, we will have that announcement, it appears, when we come back. this is new york state. we built the first railway, the first trade route to the west, the greatest empires. then, some said, we lost our edge. well today, there's a new new york state. one that's working to attract businesses and create jobs. a place where innovation meets determination...

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half ago. they've been withholding announcement of who won the presidential election from this week and that announcement is imminent. we have correspondents, we've been talking about the error spring and the revolution and the egyptian revolution which so captured our imagination here in the u.s. for a variety of reasons and tracking its progress and. >> greg: george, you made calendars. >> there are different calend calendars. most people recognize as an election cycle and the normal process of things and a revolutionary calendar which tells us we're building grassroots social movement that will affect electoral outcomes and mona put her finger right on it. you should expect within 18 months that there should be a serious izontal move of revolutionaries. but at this stage in the game, i think it's unfair to analyze

what the revolutionaries are doing, considering that most of the world is paying attention to the formal political processes. the question is, those formal political processes have a lot of power. sorry, excuse me. >> no question about it. but consider that in 7 1/2 months "occupy wall street" has done more to recognize social injustice in america than progressives have done in a 30-year period and i'm the first candidate to emerge in the backdrop of folks who are building horizontally. what we can expect is that in a few years, when you have a multi-pronged, multi-layered grassroots movement to affect electoral outcomes, you should see the real preferences of the revolutionaries embedded, not what we have now where revolutionaries are engaging in formal mechanisms they haven't controlled. >> i don't understand how anybody can see what is going on in egypt as you can draw analogies -- >> ratically different.

>> different situations and much less at stake for us. but in as much as there are analogies, to me, it seems to show off the kind of naive infutility of a horizontal political strategy that refuses to engage with the world as it is and the political system as it is. if you kind of say, well, the political system is corrupt and tainted and we're just not going to participate, you end up with the muslim brotherhood or shafik and in this country you end up th a counterculture that is politically implement. >> you only end up with those folks in the interim. we do believe that another world is possible and you can't kill an idea. the reason that people came to the square in the first place, the young people, the hip-hop community, the reason that they came is still there and they have fallen back is because they have a vested interest. >> building horizontally doesn't change things.

which changes things is the long, hard work of building institutions and working within political parties. >> this is a really important point of contention. i think the key question, the unanswered question about this, this vision of different calendars. working on a longer timescale and one finds corrupt or morally reprehensible and, instead, building an alternative set of strategy. the question is in the time it takes to do that, do the powers at be manage to consolidate their power and squash what emerges from those institutions? mona, to me, the big unanswered question, but also, leila, across the air ab world. are we seeing in the vacuum the fall of some of these regimes the powerful interest to squash what might be the second wave of

revolutionary movements, if it were allowed to take hold. >> well, chris, it's really interesting for me to watch fellow americans arguing with the comfort, basically, of a system that allows them to have this kind of argument and talk about institutions and is it horizontal or vertical because we don't have the freedom to have this kind of discussion. so, if it took george to become 18 months, eight months, i'm sorry and we're at 18 and suffering from six years of military rule, you understand where we are right now. i clearly said, we need people to be involved in the political process as well as that horizontally. but egypt has changed forever. i want to remind you of something, september of 2005, when we had our first multi-candidate elections, mubarak against several other candidates, we were ecstatic.

looking around thinking, 3,000 people. you have hundreds of thousands of people in tahrir square. whoever is going to be our president and whatever the military thinks it can do, the egyptian people have put everyone on notice that we have the ability and the right to say no. it is our struggle. but while it is our struggle, it is very important for foreign allies to understand, to ask themselves, are they going to keep making the same mistake of choosing stability at our expense? putting a piece of paper in a ballot box is not freedom. so, i ask secretary clinton and president obama, as well as the european unit and all the other people who are fascinated by our revolution, whose side are you going to take? the people who went out there and paid a price for this revolution or people who will promise you stability at our expense. choose our side because this is freedom and dignity. >> i want to thank mona for joining us this morning from cairo. we'll have more from cairo as we

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and get the fourth one free. monitoring closely the situation in egypt where we're expecting an announcement of the next president of egypt. the first time a democratically elected brotherhood candidate in the middle east, wouldn't that be the case if mohamed morsi is announced. we just had mona on the line talking about the revolution and the revolution's legacy and basically making the case that appearances to the contrary, the revolution has forever changed the politics of egypt and the staff, which is the military that is now ruling the country and the muslim brotherhood will have to listen to the demands and leila, what did you think of that? >> to what extent is street protest pressure on the staff. people have been in tahrir in mass numbers for 18 months now. and, essentially, the staff just took supreme authority away from

the parliament and it declared, it amended the constitution that was approved by a referendum i unilaterally and holding near exclusive power and despite that people have them in the streets for 18 months. what i'm saying is, i think, egyptian revolutionaries have to come and have to take it to the next step, which is to organize a vision, a consensus-based model of transition that will make it much harder for the military authorities to object to. and which others like the u.s. could get behind. a matter of translating collective action into substance. >> i mean, i think, first of all, hosni mubarak can speak to the power of people going down. >> not any more. >> that's the point. yes, obviously, the military it's more difficult because they have the guns and they're a

wider bureaucracy. so, the idea of focusing necessarily -- >> they have been responding to the street. but just by giving and taking a little bit here and there, it's not enough. and it's not -- there's still -- >> also, look, i think lost in this, i'm very curious as to where the united states is. we know that the many of these generals were actually in the pentagon when people first came down to the square 18 months ago and the idea that the, you know, they're getting their funding from somewhere and they're all trained in the united states and i wonder what type of leverage the united states is using in this instance. >> i don't think there is -- maybe i'm wrong, i could be wrong, been wrong before, a lot on this program. but it seems to me that the leverage is a bit overstated just because i'm not sure. i mean, let's keep in mind the military in egypt is not just a military in the way that we

think of it, the most powerful institution in the country. it just loaned the egyptian state a billion dollars in the past year. it loaned $1 billion. it is very cash rich and runs enterprises, huge enterprises and running olive oil factories and presses and things like this. the egyptian military has a genuine base of not just political power, military and mu naup luization on state use of violence, but a huge bank account from the enterprise that it's running. >> the failure of people in the square over the course of -- >> in the face of that. >> not to be able to be making -- >> the question i have then is why when mubarak left did the protesters say, okay, we welcome the army and they are with the people. when they knew that they had these invested interests and that they were part of the corrupt system. >> because it was probably the only way to get mubarak out there. you cannot go from a to z -- >> and to some extent that's what they had before.

that's what they knew they had. >> is this a model? we've seen just to tick through this. >> not what syria is doing either. >> it began in tunisia with a fruit vendor. it led to the fall of in tunisia and we've seen it spread to libya and libya is a rough situation right now and who is holding power and the militias and we saw it move to yemen and we saw it move to bahrain where the u.s. looked the other way while they squashed the entire thing and now we're seeing it move to syria where we reported 10,000 civilians killed by the regime. is there a place that has gotten it right? part of the problem, when we're talking and looking at this on large scale, the deck is so stacked, right? that the fact that it toppled it all is sort of a miracle and the chaos and the violence and the regression to the mean that we're seeing in terms of the force of the status quo seemed

altogether predictable at a certain level. some group of revolutionaries that have pursued a path that has been most successful? >> well, i think we typically look at tunisia as a successful example, but i would just say, also, transitions have been happening around the world for years. latin america, africa, half the countries have gone through, but tunisia seems to have followed the most coherent road map that has allowed the country to begin to build a new set of politics. and there are social tensions, but what they did is they held power, they kept power in the hands of a civilian government and then they formed a representative commission to guide the transition to plan it, to decide that we would first vote for constituent assembly and then once that assembly, once the constitution is in place, we'll hold elections for the regular government.

and this has worked, so now we have the politics in tunisia, the tensions channeled into political process. >> does the military have the same -- >> the military backed off a in tunisia -- >> that's a big, that's a big factor, right? >> of course. it is a big factor and the army was much smaller, less empowered entity in tunisia than in egypt, but i still think the egyptian revolutionaries who have been active for quite some time before, they could have had the foresight to see this is not a complete revolution. >> i want to check in with a live dispatch from cairo where tens of thousands gathered in tahrir square awaiting announcement of who will be the next president of egypt, right after this. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes.

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you see that live on your screen there. that is a presidential election commission which is set to announce the winner of the presidential election in egypt. the nation is on the edge of its seat. there is tremendous tension between the backers of the two main candidates, ahmed shafik who essentially represents the mubarak regime and mohamed morsi the muslim brotherhood and we're going to find out live in just a moment who exactly he is announcing. michelle, you wanted to make a point. >> i wanted to ask you a question, which is if you are a kind of a secular liberal in egypt, who are you rooting for? >> that's a great question. >> is it like turkey where you often do find the cosmopolitan liberals looking for protection against the islamist whose power they fear or do you see morsi as being the only hope of a democratic transition? >> i think there are those that saw -- i think there are a lot

of liberal seculars who are afraid of the brotherhood. but did that mean that they voted for shafik? i don't think so. i think it meant they didn't vote. so, i think it depends. >> but who do you want to see win? i mean, no, this is a real question because there are people, there are people in the united states government who don't know what is going to be announced right now and a question of what outcome, what is a preferential outcome. what is the better outcome right now? >> if morsi is confirmed, because the votes show he won, if he is confirmed he will be the only legitimate power actor in egypt and that will create an important dynamic and pressure on the staff going forward, as the country moves to write its constitution and hold another parliamentary election. but it will be his power will be significantly constrained. and there will be a lot of

people, the diberals, the seculars who will not get behind him and fight for what he stands for. >> it would be a huge, a huge momentous occasion in the history of the region to have part of the muslim vote take helm even if it's symbolic after what the staff has widdled down. but important point as americans watch this. if you're looking between the muslim brotherhood and if the president is in the mubarak regime, which means a complete monopoly of power by one institutional structure, where if morsi announce the president right here, there is at least some check and balance or tension between different institutional players. >> hopefully. >> hopefully. i want to bring in nbc foreign correspondent live from tahrir square to get a sense of what you are hearing there and what the mood is. >> well, chris, several thousand people standing behind me, but you can probably hear a pin drop. that's how quiet it is. just a while ago the president

entered the room and right now playing the national anthem and that's why it got really quiet behind me and one of the criticisms throughout this whole entire process is that there is a lack of transparency to how this election announcement was going it be made, particularly with so many of these complaints and allegations of fraud that the supreme presidential election had to entertain. when this process gets under way, will they win and so much anxiety and tension building up not just with how this government dealt with transition but how they are dealing with notifying the public about the results. >> that on your screen there is the presidential election commission which played the egyptian national anthem first is now reading a statement, so, it may be a little while until we actually get word of this. i wonder if there are lessons about, you know, twlz this question about the u.s. and its

support for military regimes in the region. as you think about how the u.s. is going to interact with the leaders that are coming to power in the wake of the air ab spring, one of the criticisms of the obama administration has been, "a" hypocrisy in the case of bahrain, we look the other way while our ally put down quite brutally a popular revolt and another is ad hoc and we're supportive here and not supportive there, is that a fair criticism? does it strike you as a fair criticism? the ad hoc, the ad hocness produced by the fact that the region is so difficult and complicated and -- >> and what's the alternative to that? kind of having a doctrinaire uniform approach to situations that are unique and generous. >> no cookie cutter formula for how to deal with any of these situations, at all.

>> but there also means a lack of predictability, that is a critique. if you're one of the institutional actors in the setting because of the ad hocness, you are operating in an a environment in which you do not know what the response is going to be precisely because it is varied so much. >> back for the revolutionary. consider that the revolutionaries do know that there is some sort of stability between their recognition of the 50 years of under military control. they do know there are some things that work and in the space where they're basically imagining a new world and re-creating reality but running up into the existing calendar of the political reality. i don't think their lack of engaging in a political arena was any sort of miscalculation, part of their reality that they understood their power was going to come from this independent spaces that they never had access to before. critical to start dialoguing and building conversations in spaces that they could never have under

military rule. >> this is impossible to have unless you know they are in that institution building, which you don't necessarily see. >> very briefly, i think the egyptian political seen is very devisive and we haven't seen liberals and seculars building a revolution and a coherent one that can put forward an alternative set of politics. >> young people engage in -- >> and building institutions -- >> and the brotherhood is, as i said, increase, well, it's increasingly questioned. but i want to say something about the u.s. the u.s. is used to having a patron client relationship with regimes in the middle east and it's now searching for a new client and what we're hearing in tunisia and what we're hearing in egypt and what we're hearing in syria is that the u.s. is gravitating towards the brotherhood because they are the most organized, because they are the potential new client and because they're sending such

moderate signals. >> i want to thank leila, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your expertise. really a great pleasure. what you should know for the news week ahead, coming up next. [ male announcer ] considering all your mouth goes through, do you really think brushing is enough to keep it clean? while brushing misses germs in 75% of your mouth, listerine® cleans virtually your entire mouth. so take your oral health to a whole new level. listerine®... power to your mouth™.

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snen snend ♪ in just a moment, what we know that we didn't know last week. but a quick personal "twilight of the elites" is on sale now. this week, i'll be appearing at the writer's guild tomorrow in los angeles with the one and only harris sherer. and wednesday at the harvard bookstore, and on thursday in monclair, new jersey. check out the twilight of the elites facebook page or our website, up.msnbc.com for details about upcoming appearances. what should you know for the week coming up? the interest rate for stafford

student loans will double one week from today, an increase that will affect 7.4 million students this coming year alone, unless congress does something about it this week. senate leaders are saying they are nearing a deal. republicans support keeping the rate low, but only talked about discussing the current rate for one more year. an estimated 30 million americans due to be covered under law could lose their are insurance. if they let the act stand this week, it will leave an estimated 26 million additional people without coverage. a quarter of those will be undocumented immigrants. immigrants overall use the health care system less than we do. and millions are suspected to fall through the gaps. making too much to qualify for government coverage, but not enough to make buy it on their

own. arizona's notorious law, senate bill 1070, requiring police to check the papers of anyone they stop they think might not be in the country legally, is being challenged. you can know, because you betemit romney does, because he's come out in support of sb 1070, no matter how the high court rules, he'll be expected to clarify his policies on immigration. george, what should people know? >> should know today that occupy wall street is having a debt assembly, one of the first times where people are trying on organize debtors, we're talking about student loan debt, people who have lost -- >> household debt. >> without question and what we realize, student loan debt is a pressing issue, something that the president has a plan to do something about. capping the amount of payment, for example, relative to your income. and it's happening today in new york city, but it's going to continue as we build solidarity

of debtors. >> sam. >> in the buildup to the affordable care act ruling, you should know the supreme court just struck a huge blow against unions in knox vrsz sviu, where they are inviting cases to attack unions' right to collectively bargain, and the chamber of commerce has never done so well as under the roberts court and they heard 88 cases involving the chamber of commerce, more than in the entire rehnquist court, where the chamber had a less success rate. >> there was a great editorial in "the new york times" yesterday that i would commend people to check out. >> one of the big stories in the paper today is how massively right wing super pacs are outraising left wing superpacks and it's almost 10-1 at this point, how much the pro-romney

super pac is spending and this is part of what's when liberals refuse to cooperate in corrupt institutions. >> they are having a hard time to get wealthy liberals to give to super pacs, because they oppose super pacs. >> of course. >> liberal millionaires, get corrupt and get corrupt fast. >> on friday, "the invisible war" was released, about the staggerly high rate of sexual assault in the military. it is so powerful and we need to treat female soldiers with the same respect. >> i've heard amazing things. not seen it yet. michelle goldberg, talked about, they have been on "morning joe" and people should check it out. pace university political science university. george martinez, sam seder, michelle goldberg, and former natural security council communications director, elise

jordan, thank you, all. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next weekend, saturday, surge, 8:00 eastern time, our guests will include evette clark. results if they come from the presidential election in egypt. and executive privilege. why president obama reminded us who is the most powerful man in the world. i'll be watching, you should too we'll see you next week on "up," thank you for watching. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the personal attention tdd# 1-800-345-2550 you and your money deserve. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, that means taking a close look at you tdd# 1-800-345-2550 as well as your portfolio. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 we ask the right questions, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 then we actually listen to the answers tdd# 1-800-345-2550 before giving you practical ideas you can act on. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck online, on the phone,

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there morning, my question in the battle of black church versus voter suppression, who wins? 43 years after stonewall, they are here, they are queer and we're getting used to it. plus, supreme decision.

we don't know exactly when, we don't know exactly how, but the ruling on health care is coming soon. but, first, the president of the united states is the most powerful man in the world. and president obama is getting his voltron up. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. we await news out of cairo where the panel overseeing the first egyptian election since the outsting of hosni mubarak are expecting to make a decision. crowds are awaiting the news, expected to come at any moment. what remains to be seen is if egypt's new president will have any power, the ruling military power resolved the presidency to near figure head status. we'll bring you news as it develops throughout the morning. right now, i want to bring the focus back to our shores and